Despite Overcrowding Crisis, New Sunnyside School Will Open With Empty Seats

Top 3 gets you into citywide G&T; top 10% into your district.

If we have programs to help the bottom 20% in a class – do the same for top 20%. More G&T not less. Regardless whether my kid is in it or not – give the most who score that opportunity. I want that in my neighborhood for whoever has shown that aptitude – I support a G&T program for them.

All education – you get out what you put in – but statistics simply show G&T opens up more doors later down the road. And teachers in G&T do say its just “different” – more engaging, they can approach the “material” in a different way. Look – you go into G&T and the kids have shown a certain aptitude, however its measured -right (whether top 10% or 3%)?

If everyone scored 70% or above on basic aptitude tests – then, yes, having G&T is RIDICULOUS.

But if you have (on a scale of 1-10) – 10% scoring a 1, 25% scoring a 3, 25%scoring a 5, 25% scoring a 7, and 10% scoring a 9, and 5% scoring a 10— its a different breakdown. And the needs are so extremely different. G&T helps those at the top with their needs.

If its shared with other kids in our district – fine. Schools (I believe) are funded by taxes from city/state. If it were Sunnyside only “tax levy” or “assessment taxes” going into this school only – completely different story. But we as a society pool our taxes and the share the resources from it.

Thus, I’m paying for other G&T programs in this district for kids not in my neighborhood (and for kids in my neighborhood to commute to them). Same applies to us and our schools – those parents taxes are helping pay for our new school.

We have, socially, endorsed co-mingling of funds and co-mingling of programs/students within a district. I can live with that result even if it means some spaces we lose for kids here and they have to commute to another nearby school. If it means we offer a G&T program. That’s fair – we are addressing the needs of our bottom 30% and we’re addressing the needs of our top 10%.

But – if our property taxes are the only resources being used to fund and build/fund teachers salaries, etc. at this school (and nothing from city/state taxes), ok, then maybe different story about if we have G&T the residency requirements that should be instituted for our neighborhood kids ONLY – i.e. the top 10% in our neighborhood (to reflect who is paying for it).

FYI, District 24 has about 35 primary schools and only 3 or 4 of them have G&T programs (the numbers are similar for D30). This means lots of kids around our (very large) district have to get on buses to travel to these desireable programs, not just Sunnyside kids. I do not believe there is prejudice against Sunnyside or minority kids in the placement of G&T programs in our district, in fact, there are G&T programs in majority minority schools (PS 16 in Corona, IS 61 in Corona, IS 73 in Maspeth). My son was in the G&T at PS 153 and by 6th grade, he was in the minority as a white child in the class (there were Asians, Hispanics, SE Asians, and African American kids). In fact, PS 153 (which has had its G&T program for 25 years or more) is currently 48% Hispanic and 44% White in its general population.

I am a strong supporter of G&T programs, but there are some misconceptions about the current programs in NYC. When my son got into a D24 G&T class 11 years ago, he had to take an IQ test and score in the top 2 percentile (130 IQ and up) – that to me is a Gifted Program. Now, the DOE defines “gifted” as those in the top 10 percentile, which many experts (and other states in the U.S.) would deem above average intelligence, but not necessarily “gifted.” Even with the NYC criteria, IF 10% of kids in the new Sunnyside school’s zone would qualify (and top 10 percentile based on city-wide or state-wide testing is not the same as 10% of a neighborhood’s population), that would equate to about 7 kids out of a grade – leaving as many as 22 or more seats for out-of-zone kids. Do you want your neighbors to be told there’s a lottery for kindergarten seats at their neighborhood school because out-of-zone kids are coming for G&T?

We all want to think our children are “gifted” but of course, they are not all. Only one of my three children qualifed for G&T and the other two went to our neighborhood public school where they received an excellent education, great trips (The Met, Queens and Bklyn Museums, shows at Queens College, Hunter College, Laguardia and York Community Colleges), great arts programs (Midori Music Foundation, Ballet Hispanico, Dancing Classrooms), and great philanthropic projects (UNICEF, Penny Harvest, Save the Rainforest, food and clothing collections for the poor, etc.) I was an involved parent – PTA, School Leadership Team, etc. and I think I was able to suggest some improvements which were accepted by the principal.

The days of ranking students into different classes is long gone. All school have heterogenous groupings where children of differing abilities learn side by side and teachers are trained very carefully in how to engage all the children to the best of their abilities. Children who need extra help are often pulled out (for English, remedial reading or math, speech therapy etc.) or an EXTRA teacher is pushed in or they attend after-school or Saturday remedial classes. You cannot assume that having 45% of the kids in the school not scoring a level 3 or 4 is going to adversely affect your child – those children may not be receiving supports at home that your child will – homework help, extra reading etc. (Many schools do, however, put all their high-performing students into one class – Top Class – this is not G&T, but simply advanced students, and often doesn’t begin until the 2nd or 3rd grade).

I think it would be sad if any parent gave up on the public school system before they even had any real experience with it. That said,
if a parent feels they have fully researched their public school options and it’s best for them to send their child to private school, that of course is their option. But don’t condemn the public school system or any single (or unbuilt) school without personal knowledge of it.

First, regardless whether due to the mayor, the DOE, or the DOT, the first and last stops include Sunnyside en route to the G&T school. It is CURRENTLY a 50 minute bus ride. There is more than 1 stop in Sunnyside. If you are the first or second, it is that long currently. Not everyone is fortunate to have a car to drive to the school itself – it being a 9 minute drive is great if you have a car.

Second, we have G&T kids in our neighborhood. They live in our community. We have SMART KIDS HERE! WE DON”T NEED TO SHIP THEM OUT TO OTHER SCHOOLS! WE CAN FILL THOSE SEATS WITH OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD KIDS TOO! Yes, perhaps some of the slots will be shared on a district wide level, but so what? Those parents pay their taxes too . . . The majority of G&T programs are NOT in neighborhoods that have a large minority population. It is not fair that our neighborhood does not to have a G&T program because we fall into that demographic. It just isn’t fair.

My child is Hispanic – and you know what, I don’t like that predominantly Hispanic neighborhoods like ours do not offer G&T programs even close to those in other demographic neighborhoods for OUR kids. And we don’t even have a charter school offered in our district until you reach middle school?? REALLY?? Do you think other neighborhoods and demographics would accept that? No way – they’d be knocking on their representatives doors demanding – not asking – demanding more. And yet I’m supposed to not argue for at least a G&T program – no way. Our DISTRICT is diverse and those kids may come to our school, that’t true. And we can welcome those kids into a G&T program — because you know what — THEY WELCOME US and OUR kids into their school.

Third, if a teacher has 25 students and 15 are proficient at their class level and the remainder are not – how is that teacher going to be able to maximize the learning environment for all the kids? Of course I expect that my child would score in the 3 or 4 rating. But my concern is how much “farther” or “more” could my child learn if ANY of the teacher’s time were not spent on remedial English – what opportunities do they miss if a teacher must somehow “divide” themselves into two and teach everyone at the level they are at when the levels are just so vast. We’re talking numbers in the 50th percentiles. There is just no way that child is going to get the same learning environment as if in a G&T classroom. That is putting to much pressure and expectation on that teacher – and that isn’t fair.

Again, I am not saying remove ELL programs and the like. I am saying that there may be two extremes in the level of learning. And to give some recognition and accommodation to both levels.

Fifth, if the concern is “spacing” out kids from our neighborhood – then have the G&T kids in the rented space at St. Raphael and St. Teresa’s where some classes are held now (those classes will be moved to the new school). That’s fine by me. I don’t care where the program is housed in our neighborhood – just give me one in our neighborhood.

And finally – does any of this really effect me? No. I will move or go private if a G&T is not offered. But not everyone has that option. And I think it is HORRIBLE that we can’t even recognize the talents and potential of the exceptional kids IN OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD that do score into G&T to give them the opportunity to walk in 5 minutes to school and support the local neighborhood. OUR KIDS CAN FILL THOSE CLASSROOMS if someone just believes in our neighborhood – and is willing to share with some other kids perhaps not in our specific neighborhood but that are in our district.

On that note – reasonable minds can agree to disagree. I have a different viewpoint than Woodside mom. I will advocate for G&T. I believe in it and I BELIEVE IN OUR KIDS (in our neighborhood) who can fill its seats. And I’m willing to reciprocate to others in our district who have opened their arms (and school doors) and shared their program with us. And I will welcome them as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/opinion/gifted-students-deserve-more-opportunities.html?pagewanted=1&gwh=99AD516E3CDF6C106AA0F9AD0B733368&ref=giftedstudents

EXCERPT:

Critics call them elitist, but we found the opposite. These are great schools accessible to families who can’t afford private schooling or expensive suburbs. While exam schools in some cities don’t come close to reflecting the demographics around them, across the country the low-income enrollment in these schools parallels the high school population as a whole. African-American youngsters are “overrepresented” in them and Asian-Americans staggeringly so (21 percent versus 5 percent in high schools overall). Latinos are underrepresented, but so are whites.

****

It’s time to end the bias against gifted and talented education and quit assuming that every school must be all things to all students, a simplistic formula that ends up neglecting all sorts of girls and boys, many of them poor and minority, who would benefit more from specialized public schools. America should have a thousand or more high schools for able students, not 165, and elementary and middle schools that spot and prepare their future pupils.

Above excerpt and internet article link written by:

Chester E. Finn Jr., the president of the Thomas B. Fordham Institute and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, is the author, with Jessica A. Hockett, of “Exam Schools: Inside America’s Most Selective Public High Schools.”

More Info – Especially for 123Sunny:

The G&T program at PS 153 is less than 3 miles from the Celtic Park apartments in Sunnyside – 8-9 minues driving. I don’t think children spend one hour on the bus to get there – perhaps the bus picks them up one hour before school, but then they might get in early enough to eat (universal free) breakfast at school, saving the parents time and hassle each morning. My middle son was in G&T at 153 and I put him on the bus from Kindergarten on (as many suburban parents do with their 5-year-olds). At that time, the bus came about 1/2 hour before school – you can blame Bloomberg/Klein for screwing with the busing schedules for the much earlier pick-up times. PS 229 on 68th St. and Maurice Ave. in Woodside also has a newish G&T program and busing to that school might be more timely. As I said in another post, if parents push for a G&T program at the small new school in Sunnyside, that would be a district-wide program accepting children from all over D24 and would reduce the number of seats available to neighborhood children.

I understand your concern that PS 199 has just 54% of its 3rd graders earning a 3 or 4 on the state ELA test, but are you aware that the school is 76% free lunch (poverty is one of the greatest influences on school performance) and 46% Limited English Proficient? So, 54% being proficient by 3rd grade is a pretty good outcome, in my opinion. Even schools considered “the best” in D24 – which have less than 33% free lunch and 5% Limited English Proficiency are seeing 23-32% of their students NOT earning a Level 3 or 4 (e.g. PS 128 and PS 49, both in Middle Village).

You can put two children in the same school and they will achieve varying results due to their individual circumstances. Do you read to your children at home and help them with their homework? Do you take them to theater and museums? Do you supplement their public schooling with outside classes and/or academic summer camp programs (available at schools/colleges such as Christ the King Continuing Ed, Laguardia Community College, Queens College (year-round program and sports/academic summer camp)? All these things can contribute to their progress and success. In addition, the happy “secret” of a Title I (high poverty) school is that it receives many extra dollars in Federal money which can be used to decrease class sizes and supplement programs.

If you want to join a NYC-wide egroup that posts interesting info. and discussions about public school issues, go to us.groups.yahoo.com and search for nyceducationnews.

To Foodtown Refugee – Yes, to some extent G&T programs categorize on a socioeconomic level as middle class parents are more likely to prep their kids and know when/how to apply for testing, etc. (i.e. know the “system”). So yes, of course there is some unequal distribution of who gets in – more the middle class than not. (The “upper class” go straight to private, so no need to even consider that here!!)

But in our district (24 South of the Blvd. as opposed to the North side which is a different district) data from the DOE demonstrates that at the third grade level only 56% of the children score a 3 or 4 (equivalent of ‘proficiency’) for a “third graders level” in English. That is, only a little over HALF score proficient.

This number exists despite a “push-in” [remedial] English language learners instruction approach at the school. That program has helped – don’t get me wrong – it is needed. But there is a drastically long way to go.

Now, if a child does not need a an English Learners Language program, then they should not be in it. That time could be spent on other things.

If a parent wants their child in an environment where 85% score a 3 or 4 in third grade English proficiency, they’re going to look (move) to where they can find it.

It exists in certain neighborhoods that cost more to live in than Sunnyside. It exists in private schools.

What Sunnyside can offer through a G&T program is the solid chance and opportunity at that 85% environment without having to leave NYC.

Is it right or wrong? I don’t know. But as a parent , I’m not going to send my child to a school that doesn’t match the NEEDS of my child – whatever those needs are. And a remedial English Language Learners program is not one of them . . .

And then there are taxes . .. If taxes become too much [and they are borderline that now] and finding a solid education becomes too hard [and it is borderline that now] – why stay? It makes no fiscal sense and is not in the best interest of your child.

Everything is a compromise in some respects in a community. Offer a G&T for K-5 that test into it [it does exist in NYC – currently kids that score in that percentile in our district travel one-way one-hour bus ride out to Maspeth).

Keep the English Language Learners program as it is needed in this district and I support keeping it but PLEASE – give us a G&T program as well . . .

Oh, OM. You dont discuss what you have done for the ‘hood, because I doubt you have done anything. Well…except ‘contribute’ here. I feel the need to mention SUDS contributions because of your absurd posts on the dog park. We are not only a valuable member of the community, but easily one of the largest orgs in Sunnyside. The dog run is not only well deserved, but a long time coming.

We have made many attempts over the years to try and get folks to pick up after their dogs, and there are many people that never picked up before, but do now, thanks to SUDS. But, sadly, just like with your beloved public drinking/urinating ballplayers, not everyone does the right thing by the ‘hood. The people who don’t pick up are in the minority of dog owners. Notice the poo in the same spots (dogs have routines, just like us), all it takes is 10 people who don’t pick up (2X a day, 7 days a week, do the math) to make the rest of us look bad. I offer them a bag (as that is the first lie- “I forgot a bag” or “He pooped already and I don’t have a 2nd one”). Strangely, I RARELY see anyone do it, and I walk my dog a lot. That tells me many of these miscreants only do it when no one is around. Unlike your buddies who pee out in the open, in the middle of the day, with children running around behind them in a public park, while the bathroom is open…

I am never shy about going up to someone that leaves a pile on the sidewalk. And neither should you be. Speak up. If you don’t people’s habits won’t change. When the food delivery guys drive their E-bikes on the sidewalks, I let’em know it’s wrong. Does it change all their behaviors? No. But, there are two of them that no longer drive on the sidewalk, that I can see.

OM, I think it’s time you come to grips with the fact that you really do want a dog. I can help you train it and we’d welcome you with paws wide open @ SUDS:)

Cheers buddy!

RD

Wow Rick, you are frothing at the mouth, you better check your shots. I’m not going to waste my time addressing your nonsensical lies except to say that as you recently noted in speaking of yourself that you have no idea of my interests nor my work helping people in Sunnyside. Unlike you, I don’t feel compelled to bark about my contributions in these pages. By the way, the SUDS “education” program on dog crap is an utter failure judging by the dog excrement and urine stains all over the sidewalks in Sunnyside. Rather than muse over dogs and human civilization or spinning yarns about a priest performing miracles on dogs, you and the other dog nuts on here can walk the neighborhood with broom and dustbin in hand and get those turds off our sidewalks.

Ha! OM – I do not believe you have ever been threatened with physical violence. You are SO sweet and nice, with an all around good nature. Who would threaten you? I’ve said it before, find yourself a nice companion. Human or canine. Maybe we’ll see you at the S.U.D.S. dog run in Lou Lodati Park! We ALREADY see you now. 🙂 We have a beautiful new park coming with some green space. Can’t wait for the summer!

@Rick Duro

I’m surprised that there even still exists such a program in public schools. Doesn’t categorizing smarter and more ambitious students as gifted and talent hurt the feeling of the kids who are not? Especially if kids from one ethnic background do much better than those in another. Just wondering.

If they can’t fill the school, then the overcrowding problem was not nearly as bad we had been led to believe. In other words, somebody is full of crap.

Hi Native, are you and like thinkers planning to advertise the miracles performed by Fr. Dowd in curing ailing dogs with blessings at Queen of Angels? Imagine the boast in Sunnyside property values if a Fatima like grotto is included in the new dog park where people can bring their sick pups for a blessing and hopefully a cure. Unfortunately public discourse on issues concerning dogs in Sunnyside is difficult because of the fascist like attitudes of dog owners who threaten nonbelievers with physical violence as you have done or public shaming threatened by Mr. Duro.

Congrats Rick, you managed to state your opinion in less than 25,000 words! Unlike you, I bear no personal animosity toward you because you have an opinion different than mine on a community issue. I believe public money is better spent on schools rather than dogs, you believe differently. No need for capital letters or to suggest that I stay out of a public park.

Oh, look, OM is back! I’ve missed your anti-dog park nonsense!

We need more classroom space, yes indeed. We got it.

We needed a dog run and a better park, we got BOTH. You can thank SUDS for that OM.

Both enhance the desirability of Sunnyside. Not everyone in Sunnyside has a dog, or a child, or is a soccer star, but, all are part of the neighborhood. Thus, all should get a piece of the pie and we all have:)

If you detest the concept of the new, IMPROVED, park OM, feel free to never set foot in it, you won’t be missed.

RD

To note – it has not been decided whether a G&T program will be instituted at this school. It is incumbent for concerned parents who wish there to be such a program to reach out to Ms. Nolan and Mr. Van Bramer to voice an interest in the program.

Regardless what ones thinks of them personally – there is room to have a G&T program via the DOE if it is what the “community” wants. They expressed at the meeting they do want to know if this is something the community would be interested in, and if so to reach out and let them know.

E-mail or call – let them know we want a G&T program offered at this new school!!! Offering G&T makes Sunnyside/District 24 (south of the Blvd.) a more desirable neighborhood (so even those without kids – for your property values – it is a good and valuable thing to have it in your neighborhood) and for those with kids – it is an extremely good opportunity for your kids should they test in and be eligible!!

Interestingly, in a recent NY Times article (what is the middle class in Manhattan) – it discussed one point – KIDS – and that public school G&T programs are viewed admirably and as a solid alternative to 40K a year private schools. To help build the “middle class” in Sunnyside and not make parents feel as though they need to leave the district and to the suburbs to get better educational opportunities for their kids – let the local leaders know that G&T is wanted and needed here!!

Jimmy Van Bramer has gotten more done that immediately effects me for the better than any other politician I’ve experienced. He’s in every photo because he’s out there with the people of his district dealing with the things that happen. You should be thankful we have a councilman who is so concerned with our day to day problems.

This website forum and all of you trolling a**holes are a joke. The best thing that ever happened was when The RealRealRealRealReal Ruben finally spoke the hilarious truth, openly revealing this forum as the joke that it is. If any of you stodgy old curmudgeons actually got off your 85 year old a**es and did something positive for this neighborhood, they’d have to shut down this site cause no one would be on it anymore.

Peace Out A-holes.

I hope you all have noticed that I am such a coward that I can not even shout my hate in my own name any more. I hope you like my hate in the form of Grandpa Scrot*m now.

As i walked to Starbucks this morning to get coffee, i noticed there were a lot of homeless around – saw about 5 of them within a few blocks. What attracts them to a neighborhood like Sunnyside?